Ex-Cybersecurity Expert Reveals How He Retired At 52 | Road to Retirement

Robert is five days away from retirement, and after decades in high-stress telecom and cybersecurity roles, hundreds of flights, and more than six years spent living in Marriott hotels, he’s finally choosing something he’s never had enough of: time.

In this episode, we explore what it really looks like to retire at 52 after a career built on mission-critical work, nonstop travel, and round-the-clock responsibility. Robert shares how moving to a Montana horse property shifted his priorities, why stress caught up faster than he expected, and the exact moment he realized he didn’t need to wait until 70 to make work optional.

You’ll hear how he evaluated his finances using simple “back-of-the-napkin math,” how his superhero brokerage account bridges the gap until traditional retirement ages, and why recreational employment (like growing his woodworking YouTube channel, Rusted Nut Workshop) is the perfect next chapter. We also talk about identity, marriage, health, estate planning, and the emotional process of telling your company you’re done.

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Ari Taublieb, CFP ®, MBA  is the Chief Growth Officer of Root Financial Partners and a Fiduciary Financial Planner specializing in helping clients retire early with confidence.

Transcript

Make Work Optional

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back to the Early Retirement Podcast. I want all of you to know the earliest time you can retire. Doesn't mean you actually need to retire. In fact, most people think when I say, hey, you're in a position to retire, that people just do. That doesn't happen that often. Most of the time, people go, wow, that's great to know. I'm going to keep working another year for my team so I don't just leave them high and dry. Or I've got this project. Or I don't know what I'm going to do yet in retirement, but it's really nice going to work knowing I don't actually have to be here. If I have a bad day, if politics change, I have the ability to do what I want to do, which is spend my time on whatever it is I want to do. And that's once again where I want all of you to live. I don't want you in that I don't know phase. Many of you have heard this before, but I'm a soccer player, and my wife says I'm worse than hangry when I'm injured. If you don't know hangry, that's hungry and angry. A very dangerous combination. And she used to think right when I get my MRI, I'm going to be even worse than that. Why? Because I'm going to see the severity of my injury. But the truth is I relax. And I relax even if the injury is bad, because now I know the truth. I have a plan. Got it. I might have to do six months of physical therapy or a year to get back on the field. But I know what I need to do in order to once again play soccer, which is the goal in this case. I want all of you to know, wow, what if markets went down right when I retired? Or what if tax brackets change? Or what if my health changes? Or what if I live longer? Or what if, what if, what if, wow, I still see that I would be in a position if I were to make the following changes. Great, I still want to retire. So if you're wondering, okay, what do I need to know before I retire? Once again, guys, you can email me the word retire in the subject line, and I will respond back with a free guide. It's a checklist to make sure you don't forget anything. If you want to build your own plan, just make sure to put in the subject line the word optimize, and then I'll send you the software that I use to build financial plans. And then finally, we love to help people retire early. So you can go to our website, rootfinancial.com, and that's when people are like, wow, I get I need to be financially educated on all retirement topics, but I don't want to actually be the one in charge of implementing it because I want to be enjoying my retirement. And it's our job to make sure we're helping you get the most true value out of what you've worked so hard for. So many people just keep working until 60, 65, thinking, you know what, that's what I got to do. That's what my parents did. But that's not the reality. The reality is there's so many of you who listen to this podcast who go, Wow, maybe I could retire earlier, but don't take action on it. And we want to show you, hey, here's when it could be possible. And we're not just gonna sugarcoat it, we're not gonna blow smoke, we're gonna show, hey, here's the reality based on your situation, how much you could spend, here's what's reasonable. So it might surprise you, but it also might be a little bit of tough love. And we believe in being transparent. So hopefully the podcast resonates. I do all of this for you guys for free, and I love getting to do it. So thank you in advance for letting me record these episodes, or else it just feels like I'm talking to outer space. So appreciate you guys emailing me for these free guides. That's a long intro. Let's get to the episode.

Free Guides And Planning Tools

SPEAKER_01 2:50

There's gonna be someone listening to this who's probably six months away from retirement, maybe a year. I'm gonna let you talk to them.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Yeah, I I think if I were talking to my younger self, I would say spend even more time, you know, chasing what's down a road that you don't know the end of, right? So I'm uh I like a lot of road trips. And sometimes it's you're so busy trying to get from point A to point B that you see interesting things on the side of the road and you don't stop. That that is that's actually you know one of those things that seems to be really interesting, and where I've had a lot of a lot of fun is just stopping. Read the read the sign on the side of the road. Look at the historic point. Uh, spend some time doing that. And that and that is probably one of the places that you know slow down a little bit and enjoy enjoy the trip. Some.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

This series, Road to Retirement, is designed to hear from people like you. You're going to hear from real people who want to retire early, and they're sharing what's worked well for them so far. How close are they? Some people you're gonna listen to are a month out, other people are 10 years out. So there's a wide range of people, and all of these different people are gonna help you retire early from them kindly sharing their story. Now, if you haven't seen it already, I have another series here called Retirement Reality, where people who have already retired will share here's what worked, here's what's actually been more difficult than I thought, and so much more. Today's episode is a road to retirement. So if you're on your way to retirement, this episode might resonate even more.

Meet Robert Five Days Out

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Enjoy. My guest today is five days away from retirement as of the recording date, and is so articulate when it comes to retirement planning. He's honest about what he's good at, about what he wants to spend more time doing, about how he transitioned into retirement. I think this might be the episode that inspires you to retire early. I hope you enjoy. My guest today also has a YouTube channel, so check out this channel here, The Rusted Nut Workshop. If you like woodworking, if it's ever been an interest, Robert is such a cool guy. You're gonna see him talk about it at length in our episode today. And I personally didn't know a lot about woodworking, but I just know if there was someone I was gonna listen to on this topic, it would be Robert. Robert, thank you for joining an episode of Road to Retirement. This is a very exciting episode because when people fill out my form to apply to come on the show, people say different things. Certain people say, you know, I really didn't start thinking about retirement until five years ago. Other people go, well, I've actually been thinking about it for a long time. And other people go, I just didn't really know, but I ended up here. You have been very intentional about that, and I'm excited to talk to you about that in detail. But first, I ask all my guests the same question, which is what are you most excited to spend your time doing once you're retired?

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Uh I think it's it's going to be to relax a little bit. So I've I've been moving so fast for so long, traveling nonstop, that uh being home, um, being intentional about getting up and having a morning routine that kind of feels the same, it is going to be probably the most exciting part. And then, you know, getting to the uh the list of projects that I you know have never been home to actually accomplish, and you know, those types of things are uh are the most exciting for me.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Well, thank you for sharing, and I'm excited for you to relax. If you don't mind sharing a little bit about the Robert story, real quick, when are you planning to retire?

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Uh we are filming this in the middle of November, and I just moved up my retirement date yesterday to December 1st. So I uh I'm in the five working day countdown time frame now.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Incredible. So I know, guys, we've had some people come on the show who are a few years out from retirement, and now we've got someone who's less than a week away, and you just moved it up. You probably know this question's coming, but what prompted you to move it up?

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Uh I I told the uh my CEO that I was going to be leaving, and I offered to find my replacement. I I found a wonderful replacement, have been doing that transition, and it is uh it is a good time to kind of step away and enjoy the holiday.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

So love it. Now let's learn a little bit more about why life was so stressful. Was it a career that you found just took more of your time than you thought it would? Was it what you expected, but it just turned out it was hard to spend time doing these other projects? And

High Stress Career And Montana Move

SPEAKER_01 7:05

if you don't mind sharing, what was your career?

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Sure. Uh for the majority of my life I've worked in telecom. So I've done a lot of high-tech work. I worked for what most older folks would call the phone companies. So I worked for ATT Bell Labs and um I built uh communication software for uh military three-letter agencies, countries, banks, insurance companies, etc. So uh built a couple of consulting companies to kind of implement software. I ran a lot of the engineering teams. I I stepped away from that and went over to work for a company that uh that just does three-letter agency kind of communications uh uh programs. And then currently I'm the CTO at a cybersecurity company. So with that comes an awful lot of travel. So at one point in time, I was hitting three cities a week, 50 weeks a year for multiple years. So I I've spent over six years in a Marriott. Um my God. So a lot of it has to do with just having to be in places to make some of this physical uh and and software, physical architecture and software work.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Wow. Are you like in the record holders of Marriott Bonvoy points?

SPEAKER_00 8:18

No, there's uh there are folks that are over ten years.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

So wow. Okay, over six years in a Marriott. Well, you talked about the stress. Do you mind sharing? Because I don't think you're alone in the stress. Even if you enjoyed it, the stress takes a big toll that many people will tell me. And I talk about this in my other series, Retirement Reality, where people go, look, I was stressed, but I didn't really know how stressed I was until I stopped working. Is the stress something you're very aware of? Is it something that you've been trying to, you know, let's say, wind down on a little bit, but it's just difficult to do? What's stress been like?

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Um So stress for mission-critical applications, you know, whenever whenever you're working on things that can impact human beings' lives, it it's always innately stressful. So um making sure that you're planning for eventualities to make sure that everything is up and you know, all of these things work is is you know innately stressful. So um I knew that my sort of uh run rate uh stress level was higher than probably most folks. Um and then you know, working on new products and novel, novel software and uh, you know, the over the last year and a half, the rollout of AI, how do you implement that? What are the impacts, you know, stress, you know, that that kind of amplified the stress there. So, you know, one of the things that my wife and I did in the last year was actually decide to kind of take a step and move to Montana. So we bought a horse property here and wanted to this to kind of be our uh kind of retirement location. Uh with that comes an awful lot of projects. So if you've ever been around kind of ranch life, there's there's always projects to do. And they started stacking up higher and higher, and I didn't have a chance to kind of tackle them, and it started to weigh on me. So that was an additional an additional stressor. So I started on this process thinking that I was gonna work until 70, working on cool, interesting things, and then I got to a place where the stress level got so high that I I just started looking at savings and retirement accounts to figure out if I could take one year off to catch up on projects. So that is how I ended up going ahead and starting this process and ending up in a place where, like, hey, this is an interesting place where I can I can kind of decompress, work on projects that I want to. And your phrase recreational employment is one that really, really sung to me. So the idea that you know, go ahead and reduce the the daytime stress or the day job stress, and then get some of the projects around the house done, and then do the jobs that I want to do if I want to do them at that point.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Beautifully explained. Now, I am somewhat of an expert with Montana because I've seen three episodes of Yellowstone. So that's that's the extent I've got there.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

That's filmed about 18 miles from here.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Wow. Okay. So um that you everyone's probably envisioning it right now. Now, before we get to some of these projects that I am dying to hear about that you've been pushing off for I don't know how many years, I do want to ask about stress a little bit more, specifically because there's a lot of people who are watching now who would love to be where you're about to be in a week, who are wondering how do I manage stress? And you were in a role that sounds like extremely critical. And yes, there was stress. Now I'm sure there was purpose and fulfillment that came with it. Absolutely. What would you tell people who are in similar high stress roles?

SPEAKER_00 11:44

My my wife is a health coach, so you know she she spends a lot of time making sure that people look after themselves. So one of the people that she you know continually reminds to take care of yourself and look after yourself and monitor yourself is me. So, you know, you start looking at uh, you know, your your your health numbers, your health markers, your blood pressure, your weights, and all those kinds of things, and you and you see them going in a direction that they that uh that you don't like, it might be a really good time to go ahead and check in

Simple Math To Check Readiness

SPEAKER_00 12:10

on your financial well-being as well to figure out if you can kind of balance the two of these things and and build the future that you want to. So the the uh the moment that we decided to to retire, it honestly felt like I was about 40 pounds lighter. So, you know, it it it is I I slept better than I have in probably five years. Um, you know, so it's it's a it's a it's an interesting stressor, you know, the the the level of stress I didn't realize was so high until you actually kind of take one step towards that.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

So um I don't know if if that answered the question, but uh it did in a few ways, and it prompted 12 million more that I would love to ask. First being that moment where you're finally sleeping better, was it financial where you're like, I didn't know I could retire and now wow, I really see the numbers work? Or was it more look, I'm sure I can, but I just don't know exactly when, and it's more the purpose side. What was the biggest fear that you think was relieved that's letting you sleep better? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

I I I think and and I and I'm sure that there you have a lot of folks that are listening to this that are in the same position I am. I I never worked for the money, you know. So so the the the pile of money was never really my goal. I worked hard to never have to worry about money. So I wanted to make sure that I made enough money that I didn't have to worry about money. And then that comes with a unique problem of at a certain point you need to go figure out how much you got saved, how much you have in all of your different retirement accounts, etc., to figure out what that's gonna look like in your retirement. My wife and I have both traveled extensively. We don't have huge, you know, first year travel plans, right? So it it is literally going to be staying at home, working on projects here and actually enjoying being being at home. So, you know, what my approach was to take a look at, you know, you you you've got a great program for talking about tax strategy and how to do a bunch of other really cool stuff. But what I did was just take everything in my retirement account, how long do I expect to live, divide it by what we wanted to live on, and the numbers somehow magically equaled a number that I liked without earning another dollar in interest, etc. So you know, just just take a moment, look at what you have invested, divide it into the number of years that you want to be retired, and you know, kind of start there. Is is that is it enough? Is it uh is it more than enough, right? Are you kicking yourself in the butt for not retiring two or three years earlier?

SPEAKER_01 14:32

I love that. And sometimes the back of the napkin math honestly is easiest. Yes, I love the software because this is what I do, and I'm like, how could everyone not love it to the degree I love it? But then the truth is you'll look at things and go, well, wait a second, what if inflation, I guess, does go beyond what I expect? And what if I do live till I'm 110? Then you'll think, well, maybe I can't retire, and then you'll keep working one more year. Looking at your retirement timeframe, do you wish you considered retiring earlier? Does it feel like the right time to you?

SPEAKER_00 15:02

It feels like the right time. I I think we could have uh pulled off retirement a couple of years earlier, but you know, this this feels like the right time.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

How old are you today? Today I'm 52.

Saving Habits And The Superhero Account

SPEAKER_01 15:15

Incredible. So a lot of what we're gonna get to, I promise in a bit, I can already hear you guys going, all right. You gotta ask Robert, why do you Montana, what are the projects he wants to do? But certain people will start saving from a very young age because their parents taught them to. Other people, it's a mentor. Certain people, they you know had their introductory course at their company, they heard about a 401k and they went, well, if I do it, then my manager will shut up about it. Who taught you about finances?

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Uh it wasn't my parents. So, you know, we we grew up uh broken Arizona, uh absolutely broke, you know, worried about making it to the end of the week, you know, in in terms of calories and money and those kinds of things. Um I lucked into, you know, kind of everybody's got a bunch of lucky stories, I think I think, but I ended up starting working for, you know, quote unquote the phone company when I was 17 years old. And they at the time had a pension. So they also had 401ks. So I had a a person who kind of reached out and and wanted to mentor me, and and I'd always naturally been a saver to to begin with. Um, but then you know, he's the one that sat me down and walked me through, you know, hey, a dollar today is not worth a dollar tomorrow, it's worth, you know, there's a multiplicative effect here. And ever since then, you know, that was that was sort of the start. And from there, I've taken the idea from you know, even before 17 years old, pay yourself first, pay your bill second, and then you know, have fun third.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

So I love that framework and it's simple. And some people will will hear something like that and go, okay, well, that's really simple, but it's not easy to do. Yeah, I want to save more, but life's really tough right now. Were there times where you weren't able to save to the degree that you wanted to? Did you always have a limit?

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Um the when whenever so across the time, the the pension kind of fell away and 401k started. So I always maintained whatever the company would match. So, and sometimes even that was a search. So you know, there are there are certainly tight times and you know, life happens, but it was always a goal to anytime there was a change in what the company would match, if it went up, I would I would contribute more. Anytime I got a raise, I try to put at least one percent of that raise into my retirement accounts. So wonderful. Just you know, if if I could afford more, I would certainly do more. But if if I got a you know, a promotion or a raise, at least one percent of that went into the retirement accounts that I was uh I was setting towards.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

I'm glad you mentioned that, Robert, because I've mentioned this in previous episodes. I made a huge mistake. At the beginning of my career, I heard max 401k, and I heard, well, I've got to do that. That means I can retire if I max it out. So when I was making, I think it was $32,000 a year in my first year, I maxed out my 401k and I didn't eat lunch because I thought if you don't max it out, you're not gonna be okay. And I was too embarrassed, even if I was at a financial company, to ask the question of how much are you guys doing? And so I urge everyone to first don't be afraid to ask any question financially, and know that someone like Robert, who's retiring at 52, many of you will imagine, oh well, here's someone who clearly maxed out their 401k from the time they were born and they got a job at three years old. And no, that's not how life works. And it does fluctuate. Now, do you mind sharing a little bit, Robert? You're retiring at 52. There are certain accounts, like a 401k, that you can't touch in the most optimal fashion until you reach a certain age, whether it be 55 with the rule of 55 or 59 and a half. So I have one account that's my favorite. I imagine you know the name of it, but do you mind sharing a little bit about this account and if that's helped you on your journey?

SPEAKER_00 19:03

So I the the answer to your question is yes. It it that the superhero account is going to be a big piece of of that puzzle. The the other piece is my wife is a little bit older than I am, so she is turning 59 next month, and so she'll be turning 59 and a half, right? So we have a similar uh trajectory through careers, through tech, etc. So she's able to draw down on her retirement account starting in seven months. So the the we are also very lucky in that the the property that we're on produces revenue as well. So the the the actual needs on that superhero account are actually fairly light for us, but it is absolutely the uh the account that we're gonna be using to get into retirement. And had I engaged with with you guys, because you know, again, it I was always a saver, forget about saving, you know, forget about the money because I was an org until 70. So if I had the wherewithal a year ago, a year and a half ago, to kind of pick my head up and invest more in that superhero account, it would make this transition even easier.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Appreciate you sharing the transparency there. And you're not alone. And there's a phrase I made up for this, and I call it qualified rich. So there's a lot of people that will think if I put my money into a 401k, it's great. And I'll tell them, you're not wrong. In fact, you're rational. If you're in a healthy tax bracket, you get a deduction today, it feels good. But oftentimes you're adding to a future tax burden. And if there is a pension or rental income or inheritance or other things, what happens is over time you start to realize, wow, I was kind of prioritizing the tax savings today as opposed to what made me the most over time. And all I care about is you live in your dream life. No one's ever passed away going, I wish my average return was 8.3216%. People say, I wish I spent more, I wish

Projects Purpose And Community After Work

SPEAKER_01 20:50

I retired more, I wish I gave more. So I would love to transition to some of these things you're so excited to do that you just haven't had a chance to do. Now, one of them you've already explained is this big move to Montana. Do you mind sharing what prompted this move?

SPEAKER_00 21:06

So my my wife is has always had horses. Um it is we we've we've lived in a bunch of different places and we figured out that we're we're we're more mountain, you know, river stream people than we are ocean big lake people. Um it's important for both of us, whenever we try to relax, to be in a place that has an amazing view. So I, you know, I don't begrudge anybody that lives in an apartment that's close to an uh an amazing art museum. That that that's great if that's how you recharge. For me, it's it's sitting close to nature in a in a kind of a postcar, if you will. So we we had an amazing property in Idaho before, and then this ended up being even more our cup of tea. So we've got a stream that runs through the property, a pond, you know, the horse stables. It's a it's a wonderful property, uh, sort of sort of a unicorn property here. So amazing.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Yeah, I'm dying to hear. Here and I imagine everyone in the comments as well. But first, can you guys go in the comments and let Robert know? Just give him some love for just being willing to share all of this transparently. So these projects, are we talking, you know, are we building a farmhouse? Are we spending time going, you know what? You know, my wife loves horses. I'm building new stables. Like, what are you spending your time doing that you otherwise couldn't have because you were working?

SPEAKER_00 22:25

So I I've always been a woodworker. I actually have a YouTube channel to do, you know, woodworking projects and things like that. So uh building out the shop. So I from the move a year ago, my shop is an absolute wreck. I've had no time to actually put it back together. So working on those kind of projects. So, you know, I think project number one is getting my woodworking shop set up, uh, getting the lighting updated, getting electrical updated, then I can start putting things you know together. And I'll and I'll document that on my YouTube channel as well. Um, but it it's to get that that set up that will help me uh rebuild some of the stalls in the barn. That will help me rebuild the cabinetry in the mug room. Um, you know, this this the place that we moved to is is nice, but I I've got a bunch of plans for updating the kitchen and things like that here. So amazing.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

First of all, we're gonna shout out that channel. So that's gonna be in the link below. All of you guys can go see that. I also want to say, and there's so many ways I want to go about this, but purpose is a big thing that people struggle with in retirement, which is normal. You're working for 30 years, you've got your coworkers, and now all of a sudden you're on your own. If you're doing something like a YouTube channel or you're volunteering out there, you might find that what you thought was going to bring a ton of value doesn't, and you might find something that feels silly does. And so I encourage everyone, go try stuff nobody's watching. So, an example of the YouTube channel for you, Robert, I'm excited for you to do this, and it sounds like you don't need more encouragement. But what's incredible about doing it is this sense of community that you will create. And it's one that I've personally experienced and have felt so much joy from. What made you start a YouTube channel to talk about this?

SPEAKER_00 24:11

There are a set of dying skills, in my opinion. I think that there are some great YouTube channels for woodworking in some of these uh homestead and ranching projects, but there's a there's a set of skills that have kind of started to die out. Uh traditional woodworking, traditional methods, and you know, just kind of uh documenting that so people can actually, you know, continue to find solutions for, you know, what does this tool in my grandfather's you know garage do? Right? There are plenty of people that are that are that are trying to figure out what the heck tools do, why people use them, and and in some cases why they're still better than some of the modern tools that are they're they're trying to replace now. So interesting.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

I have a guess of what's going to happen as you continue to build this woodworking channel, which I think is gonna surprise you. I think you're going to become a much better woodworker than you ever could imagine. Yes, because you're gonna be spending more time, but one of the things I do with my family is I call it a timeout rule. So I'll make a YouTube video talking about financial stuff, and I have my mom watch it, and we see how long until she wants to turn it off, and she's ruthless. She'll hear me say inflation and go, yep, didn't explain that well, off. And I'll go, okay, how do I explain things more clearly? How do I explain things in a more engaging way? Recently I was talking about sequence of return risk, which I just think is fascinating. She goes, You said sequence, I thought about the board game, off. I'm like, okay, what about getting unlucky in retirement? She goes, I don't I don't want to get unlucky, okay, keep going. And I started to improve as an advisor, as someone teaching, because I was using someone to help me with this timeout rule. So you will find that you're going to do more research than you ever would have imagined because you've got to be able to explain it to someone in a really clear way. And I think you're going to love all of that. Switching gears a little bit, a little on the purpose side, however, how are you viewing community in retirement? Is it something you really feel you don't need because you're living the postcard life? Is it something where you're like, well, it's honestly something I'm just not worrying about because the first year I want to relax? How are you thinking about building community in retirement?

SPEAKER_00 26:19

I I think it I think it's a really good question, right? So we live in a in a pretty rural area where folks aren't really close to us. But, you know, we have people that come in every day to ride horses, and you know, so so the the community is somewhat sort of built in in the horse side of the business. I there's definitely uh community around YouTube, as you mentioned. I've only got a handful of videos up, but the that that should go up. Um I belong to a couple of woodworking groups, so that that is is great. Um and then you know, I I there's another, I've got another pet project, which is building up a uh you know, broadband wireless and wirelined access for Native American communities. So there's there's there's another there's another project there for for adding infrastructure to Native American communities that will, you know, that that's gonna have a probably a five-year life from retirement as well, that I can I can get more deeply embedded in that is another purposeful endeavor.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

I love that. I'm wondering how difficult was it? I'm imagining not, but many people will go, I'm worried to retire because I don't know what the heck I'm gonna do. How long have you had these interests and the desire to spend more time woodworking or this other project?

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Uh so the the tribal work I've been working on for probably seven years. Um, woodworking, I've been goofing around in in, you know, from probably 14 or 15 years old in my grandfather's woodworking shop. So I've always had an interest, and uh, you know, those kinds of projects are always fun for me.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Are you hoping to make extra money, or is it truly if it brings money through YouTube because I'm helping people, great, it's more of a bonus. How are you viewing that?

SPEAKER_00 27:58

If it if it brings something, great, right? I I think um in in the woodworking community and the tool community, there there are big events a couple of times a year that you know some of the create the content creators go to and you get invites, and those that's cool just to be able to spend time in community. And if it ends up, you know, with with uh a return in either tools or you know, or monetary money, that that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Healthy way of looking at it. And that is literally the definition of recreational employment, which I talk about constantly because what I find is when people realize they don't need to work, they work differently. They do it in a less stressed manner, and they find that sometimes they think they hated their job and they didn't. It's just they were forced to be there. So I want to switch a little bit, and sometimes this becomes a little bit of a taboo topic. So

Spouse Dynamics And A New Routine

SPEAKER_01 28:45

feel free to answer what you'd like. But sometimes someone who's been working for 30 plus years and they're working hard, they've been away from their spouse for a long time. And certain people are excited to redate their spouse and have more time. Other people are more, hey, we love each other, but you know, Robert's home a lot now, and so I'm not really used to that. Robert, go back to your shed here. Do you have open conversations with Monica about, hey, here's what retirement's gonna look like with us? And or is it more of, hey, we'll figure it out when we get there?

SPEAKER_00 29:14

I I it's funny. Uh I've I've told my friends and family this because they've all known how much I travel. So I've had a suitcase at the end of my bed for 25 years, 20 years. So there have been plenty of occasions where you know I come home from a trip, I'll get a call. Hey, can you be in Mexico City tomorrow? Yes, empty the bag, go hit the door again. Um, so funny enough, we we got a uh a practice run of this during COVID. So I whenever you know all the travel sort of dried up, I ended up putting my suitcase in the closet for the first time in decades. And it felt like I was cheating on my my wife at all. So it it was a very it was a very odd feeling. So and then there there was that bit of adjustment where we're both kind of looking at each other like, uh, don't you need to go somewhere? Don't you want to go somewhere? You know, so so we had a practice run at this. Um and and I think we're in a really good place now. So I I think we're uh the the ability to go out and help a little bit more instead of being at the desk working uh whenever it comes feeding time or project time or clearing snow and those kinds of things is gonna be a welcome uh you know sort of activity, but also one that you're you know, we're both gonna be fighting over who gets to uh to use which piece of equipment when.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

So okay, I love that. That's a funny story. I'm curious, and you might think this is dull, but it's not. Everyone wants to know what was a day in the life when you were working, and what could that day in the life look like for you when you're no longer working? So I know we're still a week away, and I imagine there's lots of emotions, and I have more questions on that in a second. Sure. But when you were working, what time were you working waking up? What did your day traditionally look like? Did you find it was difficult to prioritize health? And then we'll talk about what you think your upcoming days could look like.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

So that that's kind of varied over time. So when I was working out of New York City, you know, I'd get up at 3.15 in the morning, work out, take the take the train into the city, you know, work all day, usually end up taking clients out, having you know, dinner, things like that, come home, and finally be home at about you know 10 30 at night or so. So there's you know, long days, and then you know, obviously, if you're traveling, you're up super early, hit the airport, travel dinners, come home, you know, and then try to catch up on all the things at home. So lately it's been I I would say probably up at six and then you know, work through breakfast, work through lunch. Um I'm lucky enough my wife works from home, so she'll bring the bring in food and I usually eat at the desk. Uh try to get out of the the office by about four and you know, kind of catch up, go outside, do a little do some projects, and then I always have done what we've called second shift, which is after dinner go back into the office and work until trying to get caught up and ready for the next day.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

So Oh my god. I think the reason that you're sleeping better is because of the lack of sleep during these years. Is this traditional in your line of work?

SPEAKER_00 32:11

It it's not unusual. It isn't it is not unusual.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

Wow. Well, let's talk about what your upcoming days could look like. Do you still think you're gonna be that early riser? Are you sleeping in? What do you think the days could look like?

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Uh here in Montana, the you know, it it's dark until eight o'clock in the morning, right this time of the year, so and it gets dark uh, you know, five o'clock or so. So I would enjoy, you know, the ability to kind of rize with the sun. Um and then you know, during the summer, the days are long, the short lists are long, and you know, get up early and kind of have to tackle it. So I've never really had a problem with jet lag in traveling. So whenever the alarm goes off, I get up and and you know, if that's 1.15 in the morning or seven o'clock in the morning, it it doesn't necessarily matter um for you know the the how I how my internal clock runs. So given the choice, I think I'd I'd probably you know like to wake up at seven and have coffee, catch up on the news, and get to work.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Amazing. You've had a lot of structure for many years. You're about to enter a life without structure, which is exciting and to many very scary. The sounds like you've got projects, and I don't think you're gonna be bored. I'm not getting that feeling. Guys, do you think Robert's gonna be bored? Let me know in the comments, but I don't think so. I'm curious after that first year, you've now relaxed. Do you think you're gonna want a clear structure because it's who you are, where I'm gonna be from 9 to 12, I'm gonna be, you know, in the woodworking studio? Do you think you're gonna go off just how you feel every day when you wake up? What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 33:44

I I hope it's how I feel every day. So I'm I'm you know, the the opposite of structure, you know. So the for me, there's there's always sort of the the big containers of the work that needs to get done. But do you go into the office or do you go to the airport, or do you work on Saturday or you work on Sunday? That's never been you know super structured because it is all over the place all the time based on you know where I need it to be. So um, but have you know, kind of opening up the aperture a little bit. It I'm hoping it's just whatever the project is at hand. You know, the the demands of time and and energy during the summer are very different than the winter. So it's gonna be nice to kind of be seasonal and work on things that that need to be worked on in that season, and then you know, be able to put things away and not worry about them for you know until you need them again.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

I'm excited for you, truly, Robert. You have been a pleasure. I have a few more questions, if that's okay. I know you're just a few days away from retirement. This is something that brings more anxiety to people than you could ever imagine, and I never thought this would be the case,

Retiring With Your Team In Mind

SPEAKER_01 34:45

but it's how do I talk about it with my company? If I go to my boss, there's a weird feeling sometimes of, wait, I'm retiring before you, and then there's jealousy and just random stuff that comes up, and I don't want to leave my team high and dry. And so it sounds like you've already thought through that. Do you mind sharing what the transition's been like since you told them I'm retiring?

SPEAKER_00 35:05

Yeah, it it it uh it it has been different than I expected. So I'm I'm not saying good or bad, but it's been different. So um I went in luckily not not facing any immediate need to retire, no, no, you know, huge health scares or anything like that, that you need to kind of make the transition really, really short. So on October, I'm sorry, August 11th, I I called this my CEO and said, hey, I think at the end of the year is going to be the time for me to consider retiring. I'll stay around as long as you want me to. I'll help you find my replacement, and I want everybody else in it on the team, and it's a smaller company that I work for, I want everybody on the team to be part of this hiring process. But you know, it is it's time for me to you know prioritize health, prioritize some of the projects around the house, and and you know, really, really focus on you know having fun in retirement while while I had the uh the energy. So that that process I think was a little shocking to my CEO and to some of the other the rest of the team. It took them about two or three days, and then they were they were very supportive. They they you know uh you know enjoyed the idea. Uh, I think they were kind of testing was I was I serious, was I was I not, right? So that that that is one of those things that I I had to spend a little time making sure that yeah, I'm I'm I'm going to make this decision. And you know, the the my ideal time fra time frame was the end of the year. If you needed me to stay a month later, fine. If you wanted me to leave a month earlier or we found the replacement, you know, two months earlier, that's fine too. And you know, just like I mentioned earlier, I I we found a replacement. I found the replacement, everybody likes him, and I'm leaving December 1st instead of you know December 31st.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

So well, first let me say this. I am freakishly proud of you because so many people will ask, can I retire at this time? Is that okay with you? And then they'll guilt you and they'll try to go, well, look at the value to the company. It's gonna take three people to do what you did, Robert. And by the way, I know we've always told you you're valuable, but how's an extra bonus sound? And now I'm gonna stay a little bit more. And you are saying in the most respectful way, I am picking me, which is very difficult to do. For humble people like many of you who watch the show, it's hard to be selfish. There's a reason that you're probably in a position to retire early. You're naturally a saver. Robert, if you were the best spender ever, we would probably not be having this conversation. So there's a tough balance that becomes, okay, how do I prioritize me? How do I spend on things I want to do? Not just for the sake of it, but traditional retirees might really want to go travel that first year of retirement. That's not your goal. You've spent years in Marriott. You might decide to go spend what can seem to others a stupid amount of money on a new woodworking tool that you might just really enjoy. And so I'm glad to hear you're not falling in this, I call it head trash sometimes of, well, I can't retire, I'm 52, and my boss is older than me. So that just writes it off. It's no, that we don't write it off. We get intentional about it. So I'm I appreciate you sharing that. And it sounds like you're putting your team in a good spot. And they did, by the way, I bet they did test a little bit, because if in those three days you came back and said, guys, you know, I know I said end of the year, but I really would be willing to go longer, could you feel that at all?

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Uh a little bit. A little bit, but you know, it it it was hard sticking. You know, I there wasn't much negotiation, there wasn't much asking for a different set of outcomes because I I think I was very deliberate in what I what I told them I wanted and when I wanted the time frame that I wanted it to happen.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

So understood.

Tax Window Estate Planning And Final Advice

SPEAKER_01 38:40

Now, my tax brain, by the way, which is not how any of you guys should purely decide retirement timing. But if you were to say, you know, I've had certain people go, I'm retiring on January 2nd because my dog's name is January, I was born on the 2nd, and the stars kind of align. Look, you could do that, but it's not the most optimal financially. The idea is that you start a year as fresh as one can because you can create income in a way that really is being efficient. So certain people will stay for one more bonus or one more check. And I go, look, you can do that, and there's nothing wrong with that either. You want to do what lets you sleep at night, but there are financial things to consider, and timing plays a bigger role than you think, especially if you're retiring early. Robert, you're probably aware of this, but you have a tax window, and I don't say this to be mean or harsh, it's you have a certain amount of time from now till Social Security and when there's an age gap that changes things. And so if I were to just say retire when you feel like it, I would be doing you a disservice because you would be losing money financially. That's just math, not whether you like me or not. And so when you have this window, what you want to do is really try to make the most of it. So I'm curious to the degree going into retirement planning that you are aware of tax strategies or charitable giving or estate planning, or is this something that you've always had an interest in? Is it, hey, I've been a saver, but that's why I reached out to Root. What's been your process thinking about this?

SPEAKER_00 39:58

So I think my wife and I have a pretty healthy uh association or relationship with end-of-life events. So uh I I am another one of those stories that was supposed to have, you know, I was supposed to have been in Seven World Trade on 9-11, and I wasn't. I was living in Colorado. Fast forward three weeks, four weeks, and I'm living in New York City to rebuild some infrastructure. So about two or three weeks after that, we we went and did our will, started, you know, and this was, you know, obviously a long time ago, and have have kept that up and updated wills, updated our estate plan. So that uh that's another one of those events in life that that I had a different feeling than I thought I would. So the moment that we did our estate plan, my wife and I went out and had a drink, and it felt like, again, I was 10 pounds lighter. I didn't have to worry about decisions to be made. I didn't have to worry about who was going to be the taking care of our estate and and going through, you know, I didn't want anybody arguing over assets, etc. So that that's another one of those places where I, you know, after walking out of the room with the estate attorney, I felt much happier, much more relaxed, and and much more in control and having made decisions and not not have to burden somebody else with some of these hard, hard pieces of work. So um, so that that's been really easy, and we've had that that done over time. And and I would encourage everybody, and and as I'm leaving, most of my employees I've had this conversation with. I know some of them are young developers, they're really smart, ambitious guys, have big goals, have certain side projects. All of those things have value, and all of those things have encumbrances. Figure out how you want them untangled if something happens to you.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

So well said. It was wonderful. And it's not going to be the sexiest meeting of your life. And I I will tell clients that honestly I go, look, maybe you want to talk dividends with us or Roth conversions, but and we will get to that. But the estate planning stuff, and there's certain things that surprise people because you know, many of you who are watching, you've heard or read the book Die With Zero, which talks about paying for experiences. Are you familiar with that book, Robert? No, I've read the book, yes. So wonderful book, that self-explanatory title, but it's not literally about, okay, how do I die with zero? It's how do I really live my best life? And they give great examples. And one of the things they talk about is paying for experiences and thinking about life in this new way. And one of the things that I encourage clients to think about is, you know, pretend you really are on your deathbed and it's not a fun conversation, but it's our job to bring up. And you're there and you're thinking, could I have spent more or retired earlier? There's certain things that you couldn't have known that you would have regretted, and there's certain things that you're probably thinking about, but you probably just don't want to say it because it's difficult. So say it to me and we want to open those conversations up. So what I would love to do to end this episode, Robert, is I like to shut the heck up myself because I talk a lot. And what I'm gonna do is give you the floor for the next minute. And what you get to do is you get to talk. Sometimes I'll say talk to younger self, which of course you can do. But in this case, because you're a week out from retirement, there's gonna be someone listening to this who's probably six months away from retirement, maybe a year. I'm gonna let you talk to them. And it could be someone who's a coworker at work who you're thinking about. It can be just someone who you're like, you know what? I think someone else would have benefited from this advice. And that could be anything from superhero account to estate planning to talk to your spouse or anything in between. So I'll go ahead and shut up now and give you the floor.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Yeah, I I think if I were talking to my younger self, I would uh I would say spend even more time, you know, chasing what's down a road that you don't know the end of, right? So I I'm on I like a lot of road trips. And sometimes it's you're so busy trying to get from point A to point B that you see interesting things on the side of the road and you don't stop. That that is that's actually you know one of those things that seems to be really interesting, and where I've had a lot of a lot of fun is just stopping. Read the read the sign on the side of the road, look at the historic point, uh, spend some time doing that and that and that is probably one of the places that you know slow down a little bit and and enjoy enjoy the trip something um and if i if i were to maybe to take a different shot at that the i i didn't expect the stress of this process to be quite as much so i'm you know one of the things that's um you know being done with this you're trying to put a bubble on every project and make sure everything's done exactly perfectly that needs up a little bit more time so in my particular case you know your health is lift a little bit you add a few pounds you don't you don't want to you don't want to have on the body um just being ready for it i mean honored you do do a good job on the way out the door but no that the the the the process of retiring is both de-stressing and stressful so it's it's it's it's differently stressful because you're you're wanting to take care of your employees you're wanting to take care of projects and programs that you have in place and then you also are you know you're sleeping better you're you're you're enjoying you're smiling more you're you're spending a little more time you know a little happier because you're you're you know getting rid of some of the day-to-day stress as well so articulated so well Robert I love that you came on the show and shared this one more time what's the name of your channel uh the Rusted Nut Workshop The Rusted Nut Workshop we're gonna put that in the link below but also I just want to mention this because it comes up often in my other show Retirement Reality where I interview people who have retired already I'll ask them hey what's one word you would use to describe retirement and as conversations go on what people say is look I'm just a happier person.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

Like I'm really not this person that's kind of feels like I'm nagging my spouse or my child or whatever it is like it's just not who I am but work feels like it's making me that way and it's it's easy to let that take control of you. And I like that you're saying look when you retire it's not just roses obviously you haven't done it yet but look the process it's going to stress you out natural parts will. And I'll tell clients look if it didn't stress you out like if you came to me like I just don't have worries that would stress me out. Okay. I'd be like I am now concerned in a bigger way. So it's normal to have those thoughts but I will say when you run what if scenarios in really efficient manners and you understand assumptions and you go wow so if I was like the unluckiest person ever and markets did poorly and Social Security got reduced and this and this and this and I was still okay look guys you wouldn't worry as much. That is how it works. So when people go, so you're obsessed with conversions or tax stuff. No I'm not I love math. If you're good with math you can have a better life and it's really that simple as I see it. So I hope all of you get clarity and find out when are you in a position to make work optional. Maybe you get a harsh reality and you look at your financial plan and go, wow, from the life I want to live where I spend 2000 a month, I'm five, six years away. Maybe you find if I spent 4,000 a month, that's kind of my needs, but my wants would be 10 a month well that's good to see. And you might find that that conversation with your boss or coworker

Disclaimer And How To Send Questions

SPEAKER_01 46:55

to retire and prioritize yourself could happen sooner than you think. So Robert thank you again for coming on the show. Thanks for having me thank you all as always for listening to the early retirement podcast. I love getting to host these shows and make different content for you guys every single week. I've not missed a single week in years and that is because I love getting to do this. Now please be smart about this before you actually execute any strategy that you see me talk about or hear me talk about should I say please talk to your financial advisor, your tax preparer, your estate attorney please be smart about this. None of this should be construed as financial advice this is for fun, educational informational purposes only once again just quick disclaimer here guys please be smart about this appreciate you listening as always and you can of course submit a question on my website early retirementpodcast dot com if you of course want me to address a specific case study or topic I will not promise I can get to it but I respond to every single person and if I find it will be helpful for a lot of people I will absolutely make an episode on it at the very least give you some insight. That's it. Thanks guys